Surviving Death with Rosemary Thornton

In this Episode

• [03:25]Rosemary describes how, after her near-death (or “temporary death”) experience, she shared that death is nothing to fear, though others struggled to understand her perspective.
• [05:40]Rosemary shares that despite her introversion and reluctance, repeated encouragement compelled her to write her book as a source of comfort for others navigating life’s hardships.
• [13:12]Stephan likens life to The Truman Show, suggesting we shape our reality as the main “observer,” and praises Rosemary for courageously sharing her truth despite fear, & uncertainty.
• [16:01]Rosemary reflects on how her personal experiences with angels challenged her upbringing, highlighting the biblical story of Hagar to emphasize that divine help often appears in moments of deepest despair, reminding us we are seen and not alone.
• [21:16]Rosemary recounts her near-death experience after a cancer-related surgical complication, describing how encountering a massive spiritual presence revealed she is a reflection of the divine “original,” bringing profound comfort and a sense of connection to the source of all life.
• [28:55]Rosemary shares how the trauma of her husband’s suicide and her own cancer led to a near-death experience where, despite wanting to stay, she chose to return.
• [31:05]Rosemary describes her miraculous cancer healing, the lingering fear of recurrence, and how everyday signs became spiritual confirmations of divine protection.
• [34:15]Referencing They Live, Rosemary and Stephan discuss how perception acts as a filter suggesting that by shifting awareness or “tuning” our mindset, we can perceive deeper spiritual realities.
• [37:45]Rosemary reflects on her near-death experience, describing it as waking from a bad dream into unconditional love, understanding, and belonging with her “tribe”.
• [42:49]Stephan and Rosemary discuss NDEs with verifiable medical miracles, like her cancer disappearing, emphasizing that the focus should be on healing and transformation rather than the graphic details of illness.
• [51:25]Rosemary and Stephan connect her sudden relief from chronic stomach pain to clarity and mission alignment and they highlight practical tools like those in Phil Stutz’s The Tools.
• [55:44]Stephan & Rosemary discuss a daily “God journal” practice of expressing gratitude and receiving intuitive guidance by asking what to know or do, fostering growth and a receptive mindset.

Jump to Links and Resources

Rosemary, it’s so great to have you on the show. 

Thank you. 

So I read your book. I have it right here, Remembering The Light, and I watched the first one of your interviews. I was really captivated by it and thought it was incredible. And then I told you, before we started recording, that my youngest daughter bought me the book, which I read, and it was great.

I’m super excited to have you on, and maybe we could start with, like, how did you end up writing a book about your NDE? Because that’s not everybody’s path. They have an NDA near-death experience. And then some will do speaking gigs, some will do podcast interviews. Some will just go back to their lives, but with a renewed sense of purpose. Like, I know you’ve written books before, but they’re very different from this one. So let’s talk a little bit about that first.

That’s a great question, because after this experience, I started sharing immediately, like still in the hospital room, I would share with everybody who walked in. I saw heaven. I saw what it looked like. I saw what happens after we die. It was fantastic. There’s nothing to be afraid of. It’s real. It’s more real than this experience. 

Dying is like waking up from an intense stream. It’s phenomenal. And invariably, people would pat me on the arm and say, “Now, dear, don’t get excited”. And the other problem I had was that this made several people very nervous. When I tried to share the experience, I would break out into sobs, because it was very fresh and it was very emotional. And so many people said, “Why don’t you call me back or talk to me again? You know, after you’ve had a few months to calm down.” 

So, the way, even the way we interpret somebody fresh from an NDE, which, frankly, I prefer to call a temporary death experience. To me, I’m a wordsmith. I used to be a reporter. I have written nine books, the one you mentioned, number 10. But words matter, and a near-death experience is when you know, maybe you’re in your car, and you swerve at the last minute, you avoid hitting a big truck or something, but a temporary death, that seems to me to be far more fitting. 

But yeah, when I came months later and shared this experience, I was very excited and enthusiastic because I wanted people to know that this isn’t all there is. And when we die, everything we are goes with us, minus the bad stuff, which has been my experience. Early in the experience, I remember one of my first thoughts was, I’m dying. And I thought, actually, you’re not dying. You’re dead. Because, you know, when you’re a grammarian in the next experience, you want. To make sure your tense is correct. But that cracked me up. 

So here I am floating away from my body, knowing what has happened and what is happening. And I heard myself giggle. I heard myself talking. You know, I’ve always had pets, so I can pretend that I’m not talking to myself out loud as I wander the house. I talked to myself a bunch, and that was the same thing. I talked out loud, and I thought, I don’t have breath sounds, I don’t have vocal cords, and yet I’m still making sound, producing sound and hearing sound without all the accouterments of the body. And I found that so comforting. And I found it comforting that my intellectual curiosity had gone with me, as had my quirky sense of humor, and even my goofball giggle. 

So I was very eager to share this with everybody, that everything we are goes with us, the good stuff, the bad stuff, the anxiety, the grief, the woes, the sadness, the fear, all of that is what I did not take with me, but as to how I wrote the book. When I shared this, I shared it with maybe three live audiences. This was pre covid. People would come up to me and say, ” You’ve got to write a book.” And I said, “Oh no, no, no, we’re not doing that new” I mean, I spent six years researching and writing one book. I’ve spent four years researching and writing another book. I mean, that’s 10 years of my life that just went into writing books predominantly about architectural history. 

Dying is like waking up from an intense dream. It was so much mess about nothing, just nothing. And what stays and what grows even better is the love and the light and the care and the gratitude.

And I thought of a memoir when I mean, I’m that person who gave my daughter’s birthday card that said, “This is how much I love you. I left the house to go out and buy you a card.” I mean, I’m quite introverted, so the idea of putting my life out there for everybody to read about was abhorrent to me. But then person after person after person came up to me and said, “You need to write this down. You need to write this down so other people can read about it and be comforted.” 

And that was really my goal, to provide comfort. Life is hard, and I don’t know how to get around that fact. Life is harder for some than others, and I had hoped my book would be a comfort. That was my primary goal: to maybe ease a tiny, teeny, tiny bit of suffering in this difficult place we call Earth. My friend Ellen, who’s very dear to me, calls this an insane asylum. And that was one of my first experiences, as I was drifting away from my body again, and I thought I got early release for good behavior. I was only 59, and I’m out. I’m off that crazy thing called Earth. 

But yeah, back to the high road. Lots of people urged me to write a book, and I thought, No. And then one day, I was at a church service. First time I’d been to that particular church in a historic town, and they have this process they call ‘bringing in the light,’ where they bring in a lit candle and then light the other candles at the altar. And I always thought it was a very beautiful service, doing that, bringing in the light. 

Well, as the young people marched past me with a candle on a stick to light, the other things behind them were about a seven-foot-tall angel, and he was wearing the traditional, I guess, Roman garb with, gosh, I can’t even describe it, but a warrior’s outfit. And I always like to think of angels as fluffy, little, happy beings. You know, one of my favorite Bible verses that I’ve studied my whole life is Exodus 23 : 20  “Behold, I sent an angel before you to bring you into the place which I have prepared for you.” 

And I always used to think of the place as being geographical, and now I think it’s more preparing you to write a book. I think that was a big part of this angelic appearance. Anyway, this angel appeared in the church. And I, you know, I’m looking up kind of incredulously, and then looking around and scanning the pews and trying to figure out if anyone else is seeing this magnificent being that’s now standing and has stopped at the edge of my pew. 

And, you know, I’m looking around, nobody else is going, Ah, look. So I think, Okay, this is somebody for me. And I had been having tremendous chronic stomach pain, and I had had a surgery about six months prior, actually affiliated with the problem I’d been having that sent me to heaven, and I had been in so much pain. And the angel said he was not one of those friendly ones, quite brusque. I took umbrage at that, but he said, “Stop worrying so much about your pride and your stomach.” And there was something else. It might have been money, because I had been worried about finances, but stop worrying so much about your pride, your stomach, and your finances, and write that book. 

And I was like, “Wow, that seems pretty clear.” And I wanted to say, “I guess we’re not going to have a question-and-answer phase here.” But the amazing thing was that the stomach pain, I had decided I would have to go to the ER if it didn’t stop soon, because I could not, let’s just say, food was not moving in its natural ways. And I knew something was bound up bad internally, the pain had been going on for several days. And you know, after the angel appeared to me and said that, I heard a Bible verse that said, “Surely the Lord is in this place. And I knew it was not.” 

And I thought about that again. I thought it applied to geography, but I realized the way that it came to me was that it applied to my stomach as well, that even in something as trite as stomach pain, it might land you. In a hospital with a surgery that even God was in that place, and instantly I felt something pop internally, and the pain went away, and I was fine. And that was very, very dramatic. And the nausea went away, the pain went away, everything. It just quit instantaneously. 

Everything we are goes with us, the intellectual curiosity, the quirky sense of humor, and even my goofball giggle. I found that so comforting.

So I went home, and I had two ham and cheese sandwiches and a bowl of ice cream immediately, because that’s the most important thing: eating. But I had not been able to eat for, you know, some time. I shared what had happened with a friend because it’s not everyone. You go around telling me a seven-foot angel appeared to me in a church and told me to get over myself, my pride in my stomach, and go write that book, and my friend said, “So I guess you better get on it then.”

And the other interesting thing, I had done a lot of podcasts, even at that point, or a few, not a lot, but a few, and people took such exception to the fact that I described God as having feminine and masculine pronouns. People didn’t like that. I referred to God as she, and that got me quite a bit of angry mail from people. Yet, somebody told me, when your book comes out, the people who want to hear this story are the ones who will contact you, not just people who come across your story incidentally, and that will stop some of this angry mail, because being a sensitive soul, getting an email from somebody that describes how much they despise me, is very difficult. 

And the person was right. Once a book came out, the emails changed dramatically. And now, I mean, I got one, it’s funny, I just got one this morning that said you’re going to hell. Just wanted you to know, yeah, I keep hoping somebody else will send me an email because that’s not the top of my email. And you know, the reason I’m going to hell is very interesting. The reason, I mean, it’s good to know, the reason I’m going to hell is that I, I don’t talk enough about Jesus. So that’s, that’s, you know, where I and a parent, a lot of people might go. I don’t understand why somebody would think that that’s a kind and loving thing to do. 

But, yeah, that’s very Jesus-like. Of them to send that.

I mean, I always ask when I get angry. I mean, we all get angry. And you think, “Oh, I’m gonna tell them what I think of them.” And then I think, “what, what’s the good in that? How does that profit me? How does that profit them?” 

Yeah, it’s a trap. You know that Star Wars meme, it’s a trap. 

No.

Is this an alien? That’s it? I don’t know some. I don’t know, an amphibious-looking thing, and he’s wearing a, you know, costume outfit. He’s saying it’s a trap. He’s telling the other people on the bridge of the warship. Anyway, it’s one of those viral memes that spread all over.

You’ll have to send that to me.

So it’s a trap, right? So you get hooked in if you’re not careful, and you know, not having these opportunities is a real shame, because how are you going to work on yourself? How are you going to have anything to push against if there’s no contrast? How are you going to work your muscles?

Very true, and we’re supposed to be working on ourselves. I don’t remember anywhere in the Bible where it says to work hard on other people, right?

The way I see it, they’re all in on the game. They just don’t realize it yet, right there. You’re the main actor. You’re like Truman and The Truman Show. Have you seen that movie? 

Oh,  yeah. Oh, I’ll watch that show. I think that’s profound.

Yeah. So you’re Truman, and everyone else is in on it; either they’re an expert, or they’re a supporting actor, but they don’t realize they’re in on it. And, you know, you’re the observer, if we want to talk quantum mechanics or quantum physics, so that way you get to, you know, shape your own destiny by just being in a high vibration and getting the best outcome. But we can fall into a lower vibration, and we can also choose those movie scripts. So either way, we’re gonna make it through the other side. 

So, yeah, I do want to point out that I’m really impressed that you took that message and ran with it when you got that from the angel, because there’s a lot of fear and uncertainty in putting yourself out there. It’s not just being an author. It’s because you already were an author. It’s about proclaiming your truth and being willing to have the haters come after you. Hopefully it doesn’t happen, but you know you’re out there in the world, and you can’t be afraid to polarize people, because you’ll have a very unimportant life then.

The message supports the messenger. It’s not my message. And if our focus is to glorify God, then everything we do will help people. Share on X

That’s very true. And there was something I learned years and years ago that has meant the world to me. The message supports the messenger. It’s not my message. And in my book, even in my architecture books, because that was my predominant thing, was architecture. Books, architectural history: I would always put SDG, which is what I think was Bach and maybe Mozart; put that on every piece they composed, which is solely, “Soli Deo Gloria”, Glory to God alone. And I thought that’s the point of everything that we do, if that’s our focus, our music, our writing, our podcast or everything, it will help people. If our focus is to glorify God, then that will put us in the right place.

Yeah, and I’d say it’s also about rediscovering God and returning to God. You know, if that’s part of our mission, because everything is so cloudy and difficult to navigate, we get to earn the light and not just receive it as a gift. We get to feel like we’ve earned it. And you know that comes with pride isn’t the right word, but you know, a good feeling that we’ve done something,

Yes, and it’s interesting. We were talking about belief systems. Very briefly. I was raised in a religious belief system that did not embrace the idea of angels, not as beings. And yet my experience had lots of angels, and I mean as beings, such as this fellow, this angel who appeared beside the pew. And angels, I always thought angels were just full of light and love. And, you know, great, the one who appeared to me at the end of that pew was all business.

Business, I love it. 

Others were like, “Hey, you stop and go in that direction.” I mean, they’re, they’re pretty clear. And you know, my first is, I recall the first appearance of an angel in the Old Testament, which appeared to Hagar. Isn’t that fascinating? That is the first recorded appearance of an angel. And you know who Hagar is, the slave woman, a concubine. She’s out in the desert getting ready to throw her baby under a bush because she can’t bear to watch him die. That’s where an angel says, “talks about the God who sees, so we’re not in this when we get into miserable, horrible situations, we’re not in it alone. God sees us.” 

And you know, that’s what the young people say now, which I love, I see you, I hear you. You’re not as alone as you think. But I love that, that this woman, that she was at the bottom tier of society in any way, in every way you can judge such things, was the first time, well, you know, in recorded biblical history that an angel appeared and helped her and saved her in the child. But I am the God who sees, and she was also the first one to give God a different name, I think. But I’m not sure about that. But yes, I find that fascinating. 

When we’re at the depths of despair, I think, I think that’s when we are closer to the angels. And I’ve come to think that angels are the spiritual beings who agreed to come with us to this very hard experience called life. But what I’ve read, what I’ve heard, and what I believe is that we have to seek them. We can’t just get through life. We have to say, “Hey, Little help here, which is my favorite prayer.”

When we’re at the depths of despair, I think that’s when we are closer to the angels. And I’ve come to think that angels are the spiritual beings who agreed to come with us to this very hard experience called life.

That’s awesome. It reminds me of Star Trek, you know, the Prime Directive.

Yes, you’re right. Don’t interfere. Be a presence, but don’t interfere. That’s true.

There are a lot of easter eggs in a lot of movies that are, you know, from the positive side of disclosure. There are negative elements like Marvel movie type, you know, disclosure elements as well, but I try to stay clear of those. And I want to, you know, just acknowledge the easter eggs and the, you know, hints that were given through movies and TV shows and so forth. Because, you know, there’s so much for us if we are just willing to tune in.

I think tuning in is a big part of it. I started life in radio broadcasting, and there are radio signals all around us constantly. And now we have Wi-Fi signals too, but if we have to use a receiver and tune to the right frequency, that’s how we get the signals. But yeah, I believe the angels are all around us, sometimes just twiddling their thumbs and saying, “I can’t believe they’re doing that again.”

Yeah, if only she would ask. If only.

And one of my favorite prayers came from a reader. I read every single email I get. I get about 10 to 12 every day, day in and day out. And overwhelmingly, they’re positive. I thought that. Just thought it was this morning I got informed, I’m going to hell. But overwhelmingly, they’re very encouraging, and mostly people say, “I love this.” I get a lot of people saying, “I feel like somebody understands how hard my life has been.” I feel like I’m going to be okay because you were in a bad spot and you’re okay now. 

So that’s been immensely comforting. But one of the best prayers somebody sent me was a prayer. They said that they pray frequently, which is for the angels. Okay, I don’t know who’s on duty now, but can you step in and help? Because I’m losing it, man. So I pray that one a lot like I can’t see you. I know you’re there, so how about you? You give me a little help right now. And I can’t tell you how many times that prayer has brought a measure of peace in some form or another. Yeah.

You know, I used to communicate a lot with the angels. I still do, to some degree. But what really shifted for me in terms of going direct to God was that I was told I was misinformed by a Kabbalah teacher years ago that you don’t bother the Master of the Universe with trivial things, and that’s wrong. Like, I didn’t know what was wrong, but it was wrong. It was wrong information. And so now I’m going to God for everything. I can share a story with you in a minute here, but this shift in my decision-making about who I’m going to talk to changed a lot of the trajectory of my life, and it was really important, so I’m curious to hear what your take is on that.

When I had my experience, my death experience, I had just had a surgical biopsy. I’d been diagnosed with Stage 2 Cancer, so they did a surgical biopsy trying to determine how far the cancer had spread, and when I came out of that, there were complications. I ended up back at home and went back to the hospital. And it was actually at a little while that I lost so much blood, I passed out. I died, transitioned. 

And one of the first things that happened was that I was floating through this blackness. And throughout my life. I mean, I was born in the late 50s. And I remember when Raymond Moody‘s book Life After Life came out, his little trade paperback in the 70s, I think it was 76 man. I read that thing, cover to cover, over and over and over and over and over again. Then I read Dannion Brinkley, George Ritchie, and Betty Eadie. I read all of them. Read everything I could find on near-death experiences. I was fascinated by it. 

So when I was floating away from my body after I literally bled to death, when I knew what was happening, I’m like, yippee. This is over, and I’ve always had a daily habit of keeping a gratitude list. Every day, I write down five things for which I’m grateful. And some days they may seem trite, but they’re not, you know, I can walk today. I have vision, I have hearing. I’m having a good hair day. You know? I mean it, really. It’s important to me to find even trifles. 

So as I’m floating away from my body and having a really great time, I just keep thinking, I’m so grateful, I’m so grateful. I’m so grateful. And I also remember thinking I always wondered about being a ruminating, overthinking, introverted writer who’s half a bubble off plum, if not a little more. I always wondered, you know, how this ends? 

And floating away from my body, I thought, boy, that was all pretty easy. That turned out pretty well, never have to go through that again, wink, wink. But one of the early things is very early on, and again, it feels like a chronology, because that’s the only way our human mind can frame things. This happened, and this happened, and this happened. You know, Einstein said to those of us who are committed physicists, the past, present and future are only illusions, however persistent. 

So who’s to say what order it happened in? But in my knowledge, I was joined by a massive, tall spiritual being, and more than a spiritual being, like, like, God, I guess. I mean, I’m a Holy Ghost, so I remember looking up and to my left, and I’m in total blackness. So it’s kind of silly to look over there, but it’s natural. And also pretty interested in the fact that I’m looking over my left shoulder, but I said, in a little voice, “And who are you?” And the answer was immediate. Before I could even finish the sentence, the answer was, “You are the image and likeness. I’m the original.” 

And I took to the habit, and that was immensely comforting. My whole life. I want, I mean, that’s Genesis 1 : 26-27. My whole life, I’ve wondered, what does it mean to be made in the image and likeness of God? I could never wrap my mind around that, despite reading lots of exegesis and Bible Commentary, everything I could find, I could never understand what it meant. But now I got it. I’m just the reflection of the original. 

The more we look for the signs, the more we’re going to see them—and the more comfort we can derive from them. Share on X

And I took to calling this presence, you know, when I came back from this and was sorting it all out mentally, I took to calling her big Rosemary. And boy, did people take offense at that in a big way. And the only way I can liken it is to say that God is light. And then there’s this prism and all these little refractions of light in different colors and different shades going out into the world. We’re the reflections from the original, and that has been so comforting to me. 

So I do like your idea that it is okay to bother, not to bother, but to turn to God, you know our Father, and say, “I need some help,” because that idea that there’s an original and we’re just the image and likeness. I thought that’s so, so comforting. And there were times, I mean, I people seem to think, having had an NDE, that I’m some glorified Ascended Master Bodhisattva, something I’m not. I still have crummy teeth that, you know, I go to the dentist a lot. The dentist now knows everything about my kids. I know everything about her kids, and I still have profound dental anxiety. 

So yeah, I’m not an Ascended Master. Get so tired of people thinking that? But yes, this, this when I have down days, and I the other day I was having a very hard day, and I have somebody very close to me that’s had a chronic illness, and I was walking through the kitchen and there was a bottle of juice, and emblazoned on the label of the bottle of juice, it said the original. And that always snaps me back to the fact that we are just the image and likeness. And when I was in that experience, the best analogy I can give it was like I was a drop of water in the largest ocean imaginable, and I was just going back to my source.

Yeah, beautiful. And what I find really comforting and very grateful for is these kinds of signs, labels, little, you know, kind of nuances that show up. They don’t hit us over the head with their obviousness. They’re subtle. And so when you saw that label, and it said the original on it, 100%, I believe that that was put there for you for that moment, and that, you know, in this illusion, that we’re living this persistent illusion. 

There’s the ability for angels and God, of course, to edit the scene in real time and say, “Oh, this person needs a little bit of encouragement, a little inspiration or a little nudge back in the right direction.” Let’s drop a little road sign or whatever, you know, an angel number on the clock or something. And yes, not by coincidence. It’s not by chance.

And that’s why I keep a gratitude list. I think the more I keep a miracle list now, which is something I did after coming back from the NDE, and a miracle is something in my world, is just as you describe. One of them happened not too long ago: I was feeling sad and lonely. I don’t have a traditional family. I have three daughters who are very dear to me. But, you know, children go out in the world and live their lives. You can’t, can’t peg your life on a kid. But in terms of other families, I don’t really have much at all. 

So, you know, sitting in a car in traffic, feeling sad and lonely. Think I wish I could tell you, you know, holidays are coming, and I’m with my family, and I close my eyes and I say, “God, I don’t want to cry. I feel so lonely right now.” And I opened my eyes, and there was a work truck in front of me, and there was a bumper sticker on it, and it said, “You are not alone.” That made my miracle list. No, because before, and I do believe, one of the little angel messages I had was that when we’re out in the world, and we’re living our life, pay attention to the signage and read the spiritual interpretation of it. And this may seem like another silly one, but it has meant the world to me, so in my experience, and by the way, I appreciate that this is a very different kind of podcast. Usually, you know, they wind me up like a top, and I tell my story in the end.

Yeah, well, we’ll have to link to a couple of your favorite NDE show interviews so they can hear your whole story, because it’s incredible. But yes, you and I were both guided before the episode recording to make this back-and-forth Q&A.

Well, in the Reader’s Digest version, I’m married to a great guy, the love of my life. I mean, he really was a very special man. And then one day, he came home for lunch, came home for lunch, and he ended his life at our home. I was devastated, fell off the deep end, had a psychotic break, lost my mind. I mean, I am a sensitive soul, way too sensitive to be wandering around this Earth. And for 29 months, I was nuts, and then I was diagnosed with cancer, and I had been asking God for three things every night: heal me, or let me go, no more life. Or when I do go, no life, review and three, I can’t handle any more hard decisions. I had serious decision fatigue. 

So then, after the surgical thing, they make some boo-boos. They nicked something. I bled to death. My heart stops, literally. And I, you know, I go into heaven, have this magnificent experience. I see, ultimately, I’m taken to a big white room. I see a door in front of me. I say, “Okay, everybody out of my way. I’m doing the door”. I know about this NDE stuff from the door, since I’m not on the other side of that boundary, there’s this much chance I could go back. Thank you. But no, let’s get through the door. This is very important to get through that door. 

Well, obviously, you see who won that argument, because here I am. But I was told, in this white room where I was taken, that if I agreed to go back, I’d be restored to wholeness. I was like, “good to know I’m not doing it.” I really felt very strong, I wouldn’t go up. And what happened again, very short version, is they showed me the nurse who had attended me when I was in that ER, and I was shown the nurse, if I did pass on, I was shown the nurse was sobbing in a hospital supply room, wiping her hands, crying. I promised that woman I wasn’t gonna let her die in my loss. 

And I thought, “Man, I guess I need to go back for her.” But I did end up going back. And obviously I am in real form, not, if not an ethereal being here. It being healed of the grief occasioned by my husband’s suicide was actually the bigger deal than being healed of the cancer, and I did have subsequent medical tests, had a second surgical biopsy, three hours, they sliced on me trying to find, where did this go?

They wouldn’t believe you, because you’re miraculously healed, and you were assured of this up in heaven, and they’re like, yeah, right, I don’t believe that. I’m going to go in and find that cancer. So they didn’t find the cancer, right? And they didn’t

What she said is, there’s not one cell in all the places and all the skin biopsies, what do you call it? You know, they take flesh from a lot of places once they slice you up. And, yeah, they didn’t find anything. But then I had this. And I mean, I sought out a second opinion because the first doctor was adamant that I begin chemo and radiation immediately, you know, as soon as I had recovered from the catastrophic blood loss from the NDE.  And I said, “No, I think I want to talk to somebody else and that.” 

God and the angels have healed this, and it’s over. When God heals something, it’s not an alternative to medical treatment. It’s done.

And he wrote mentally ill on my chart because I refused chemo and radiation, which was really a surprise. You know, we have my chart, or whatever they call it, where you can look in and see what everyone’s saying about you, right? Don’t read the clinical notes. 

So anyway, after this experience, I was assured that the cancer was gone. In fact, with the surgeon who’d operated on me the second time, told my friend, who was waiting outside in the waiting room, she said the doctor told my friend, “had it not been for those first tests, I would not believe she ever had cancer, because her flesh is also pink and pretty and perfect. There’s no scar, there’s no evidence, there’s nothing. It’s all gone, which is pretty dramatic.”

But for the next few years, I suffered this unreasonable fear that it might come back, that I might get it again. And then two things happen. One, it was a realization that when God heals something, it’s not an alternative to medical treatment. God says we’re done. This is done. God and the angels have healed this, and it’s over. So I was driving by this car wash, dealing with this fear, asking God, save me from this fear. 

I mean, it became pretty all-consuming at about the three-year mark, and then I drove by this car, and a big sign flashed up in front of it. It said, “clean, shine, protect,” and the angels, that’s what God did for you. You were clean. You were cleansed of this mess. You’ve been buffed up and shined and pretty, but now you’re protected. And the thing is, I believe so many of these signs, even business signs, we need to look at their spiritual import and apply them to ourselves again, like the treatment show, you know, in The Truman Show, it had the negative aspect.

The more we look for the signs, the harder we look for them, the more we’re going to see them, and the more comfort we can derive from them.

I remember when she went into the travel agent’s office, and there was a picture of a plane plunging into the ocean on fire. Yes, they’re building up the fear, and the angels are trying to build up the love. So, yeah, I really think we need to pay attention to the signs, literally worded signs,

And the lyrics and the, you know, the music and everything that’s all part of the Easter eggs as well.

Yes, it really is. And I think the more we look for them, the harder we look for them, the more that we’re going to see them, and the more comfort we can derive from them.

Yeah, although I don’t know that, you have to look hard, you just have to be in an openness like a willing suspension of disbelief.

Have you seen that movie? It’s an occult classic from the 70s. There was a former wrestler who was the star in it, and when he put on eyeglasses and certain sunglasses, he could read the subliminal messages everywhere,

Yes, and he could see the aliens too.

Yes, that’s right, I forgot that part, but it was, it was a picture of a woman and her husband with a stroller, pushing a baby, and when he put on the glasses, it said, “reproduce and buy more stuff.” Yes, do you remember the name of that? I should know the name of that.

It is. I’ll tell you in a second. They Live (1988). 

They Live. 

They Live, directed by John Carpenter, starred Roddy Piper.

Roddy Piper, I should. Write that down, yes, but that is a powerful message. And yeah, you know the thing about the glasses in our brain? I have come to believe that our brain is a filter, and we have to learn how to turn off some of its filtering. There was an experiment done, I think it was the 30s or 40s, but they put, have you heard about, they put upside down glasses on people? Have you heard about this?

Oh, yeah, the brain’s adapted, yeah.

And it took, on average, 48 to 72 hours for the brain to invert the image. So they were walking, you know, they weren’t tripping over doorways anymore. But when they took the glasses off, it took another 48 to 72 hours for their eyes and their brain to correct the image. So our brain is going to jumble things around until it matches what we think it ought to match.

Yeah, and I think this relates to what we’re talking about earlier, about, you know, you saw that angel, and he was standing by the pew, and he gave you the message. And then you’ve seen other extra-sensory things that, yes, music from an organ that was showering the congregation with light and so forth, incredible things. And if you are in that vibration, you tuned your receiver to that kind of radio station that shows that sort of stuff, right then you’re in that place of being able to walk in both worlds, simultaneously, this world and in the upper world, in the heavens. And conversely, if you believe in the almighty power of the doctor and his medical Hexing. I love that term, by the way that I read. 

Isn’t that great, Larry Dossey, who came up with that, oh yeah.

It’s really, yeah, it’s true. You know, people give you, how dare they give you three months to live or whatever, and then just say there’s no hope. Just get your affairs in order. Like that is really dark, you know? And so if you are on, conversely, you believe in just the power of your own right hand and the power of the establishment and that. And you forget that everything is adjusted, tweaked and finessed by God and His heavenly, you know, court and that this is just for your benefit. And you get sucked into the fear and the lack, and it’s just it. It leads to a lot of unpleasantness.

It is one of the profound memories. I mean, I have a lot of memories of my death. One of them was when I first popped out of my body. Because I was unconscious when I died, they had given me a morphine derivative, which was not a good plan, kind of greased the skids. Did the afterlife for me, but when I passed on, it really was akin to waking up from a very intense dream. It was almost like I was so relieved it was over, because having lost my husband the way I did, I became a 21st-century leper, and I used to joke that I should just walk down the street yelling, “unclean, unclean, unclean,” because nobody wanted to be anywhere near me. 

People act funny around somebody with trauma. A lot of people don’t know what to do, and yet the people who rushed into the fray knew precisely what to do: to love and to quit the bromides. Oh, honey, it’s going to be fine. Just give it time. Nope. So that was waking up from that dream. It really was like if you walk into your child’s bedroom in the dark and they’re screaming and screaming because they’re in the middle of a terrible nightmare, and you grab them by the shoulders and give them a little gentle shake. 

I’ve often said, if I had to sum up the whole experience of dying in three words, it would be simple, and it would be: welcome home, dearie. I found my tribe. I found my people.

You say, “Honey, wake up. It’s okay, just having a bad dream. “That’s what it felt like to die. Was a loving parent giving me a gentle nudge and saying, “Honey, wake up. Wake up. It’s okay. You’re just having a very bad dream, but it’s over.” And I’ve often said, and I mean this to the depths of my soul, if I had to sum up the whole experience of dying and seeing the angels and the whole experience in three words, it would be simple, and it would be welcome home, dearie. I found my tribe. I found my people. I remember one of the angels said that it was a hard one. You know, life was hard, but look at you. Look at how you came through it, and look at you now. 

I felt so loved, so understood. We all want to be understood. And I felt, you know, going back to what we talked about, Hagar, I felt loved, I felt seen, I felt heard, and the angels told me, “We know that life is hard in that place. We know it, and you had a hard one with losing your husband that way, but that feeling of being with my tribe,” and what I was actually speaking to was the fact that it felt like waking up. 

And I promised myself when I came back from that, I would always be for somebody to get all tangled up over. I can’t believe he said that to me. I can’t believe he thinks that. I can’t believe he’s talking about me behind my back. And now blah blah get really tangled up in all the human drama. I realized in that experience of having died that it was so much mess about nothing, just nothing. And now I tell myself one when we die, it’s a real slate-wiper, all that stuff. It’s like Ash. It’s just nothing. 

There’s not even enough left of it to recognize. And what stays and what grows, even better is the love and the light and the care and the gratitude and just that feeling of belonging. And the number one email I get is probably from people who say I’ve had that feeling too, that I never belonged in this world. I remember being 11 years old and wondering, What in the world am I doing in this place? I don’t have friends, I don’t have connections, I don’t have people. I had a mother I adored, and that was great. I couldn’t have survived without her. 

But the whole world saw me as a weirdo. And I think part of the reason they saw me as a weirdo is that I kind of came to this Earth a little more spiritually tuned in than some others. And when you’re a kid, and you’re already feeling spiritually tuned in, man, do you get bullied and do you get made fun of? So, yeah, dying was like going home.

I’ve often said, if I had to sum up the whole experience of dying in three words, it would be simple: welcome home, dearie. Share on X

So one thing I read in your book that intrigued me was that you had an NDE as an infant that you didn’t realize happened, and that tuned you into those higher frequencies, so you could sense things spiritually, such as angels and so forth. As a child, you know, kids normally don’t see or experience it in that way,

I think on one hand, I know it was a blessing to have that experience. But yes, as an infant, I was born, I was born healthy, a seven-and-a-half-pound healthy baby, and then I contracted a staph infection at the hospital, which turned into blood poisoning. And then at three weeks out, I mean, I never came home from the hospital. Three weeks out, the doctor came to my mother, who had been praying without ceasing, and said, “Listen, go home and focus on those three other children you have, this one’s gone.”

Another case of medical hexing.

He told her. He said her kidneys, the toxins have hit. Her kidneys have failed, so the other organs won’t be far behind. And this was late afternoon, three or four in the afternoon. So my mother did go home, but she and a friend spent the night sitting up and praying for me, and the next morning she said she didn’t get any calls. And the next morning, she said I was back in that hospital when the doors opened, and I walked through it. It was a Catholic teaching hospital, and the nun was holding me in her arms with a big red bow in my hair. And the nun told my mother, they said, “This baby isn’t better, she’s healed. You can take her home.” And they told her, they said, “It was only your prayers that saved this baby.” 

And in this experience, when I was floating away from my body, 59 years old, and I was, you know, in this blackness, this velvety, comforting blackness, the floating, and I said to the angel that was, “I’ve been here before, like, you know, in these 59 years is very familiar to me.” And they said, “Remember that story your mom told you about you almost dying? That wasn’t an almost,” right? You got sent back then, too. But yes, I do remember very clearly being 11 years old, sitting out on a big, open expanse. That’s the other thing. Even as a kid, I just wanted to sit out in the parks and around trees. Who does that? 

But anyway, I was sitting in a big park and looking at the pretty trees swaying and everything, and I thought, “Just let me go home. Please don’t ask me to stay here any longer. I just want to go home. This isn’t my place. I just let myself go. Please. Let me go home.” And I’ve read PMH Atwater, who wrote a book about when itty bitty children have near-death experiences, and that is very common, this feeling like, “Why did I get put in this outpost?” You know, it’s like being put in Antarctica, in an igloo.” Why am I here? Exactly, what am I doing? What are we doing? Can I go back now?” So yeah, that’s hard. It’s hard, and this world doesn’t honor spiritually minded people. 

Yeah, maybe it will one day, maybe I’ll be around, maybe I won’t get hate mail. But yes, that hate mail’s gone way down since I wrote that book. My late husband was an attorney, and at age 60, I decided to take Social Security. So I’m sitting in the Social Security office, and I’ve written all these books, and you know, had a handle. I’ve done things in construction, broadcasting, car repair and appliance repair. My career has been all over the map. 

So they said, “Okay, Mrs. Thornton, now if we use your social security, you’ll get $247 a month.” Like, okay, they said, “but you can take your late husband’s Social Security”. And I said, “What will that be?” And they said, “A lot more than $247 a month.” Because in this society, if you’re a businessman, a lawyer, a doctor, you know, you have phenomenal incomes. And if you’re somebody trying to spread light and love, your income isn’t naturally that high.

Yeah. That’s not necessarily a truism, but that tends to be the case. Yeah, so let’s do a little bit of a lightning round here. For the last 10 minutes or so, I’d love to kind of circle back on some of the topics we already covered and maybe get some more, I don’t know, close some open loops here. So one thing I wanted to go back to was this idea of that your NDE had verifiable miracles associated with open miracles, and that would be including the disappearance of all traces of cancer, to the great surprise of the medical establishment. 

And this reminds me of a book I don’t know if you’ve read it before, but Anita Moorjani, she’s familiar with that, yeah, for her NDE and the book that she wrote was Dying to Be Me, and she had, I think it was Stage 4 Cancer. Anyways, it was so extreme, and it was so markedly different in going from like, just absolutely terrible to nothing, it was like a different scan or a different person, and so that was verified through multiple medical professionals who came in. It’s like, “I want to examine those hospital files. I want to examine your medical records, etc. I want to be able to validate what you say is true from a neutral third-party standpoint and from an expert standpoint.” And sure enough, it was verified. So I’m curious, have you read that book, Dying to Be Me, or have you maybe met her at an NDE conference or anything like that?

I have not met her. I’ve seen her story on a podcast I started, and many people have shared their experiences with me. I read the CliffsNotes. I started to read her book, and frankly, the descriptions of cancer were so graphic that I thought, I don’t want to get mired in this again. So I didn’t read all of it.

 And when I wrote my own book, I tried to keep that in mind, that the goal is not to talk about, oh no, this disease. This is so bad. The goal is to talk about healing, and we ascribe certain qualities to certain diseases. One of the things I was told about that white room I was in was its purpose: to wash away all the impurities of Earth and all the muck of the world, which is what it said. And it was explained to me that some people die, and I falsely link their identity with the disease process. Some people talk about their disease all the time. They talk about their mental illness constantly. How you magnify gets bigger, 

And also whatever you identify as yours. That’s a very good point. It attaches to you. So if you call it your cancer or your tumor or your disease or your disorder, you are owning that you’re identifying with, it becomes yours. 

Yes, absolutely.

Yeah, but this is a good point you mentioned in that book, Dying to be Me. You stopped reading it because it was so graphic. And the description and this, this is a great reminder to be careful, to not re-traumatize people, like we don’t know what they’ve gone through, and if we are trying to prove to certain people that, hey, this is so bad and so real and so forth. And it went from this contrast to this other thing. 

We don’t have to prove it to those people because I learned this from Robert Allen. I love this description. He explains that if you’re on stage talking to an audience and some faces are frowning. It’s not your job to turn them around. They’re not here for you. You’re not there for them. You’re not there for the frowny faces. You’re there for the smiley faces, and they’re there for you. 

That’s true, and that’s, again, probably why I wrote my book, which was because I wanted people to come to me to hear the story, rather than me trying to go to them, because early on, I had lunch with a very dear friend. I thought he was a dear friend, and he spent an hour and a half berating me, explaining why my NDE was a fraud and how I could not possibly have died, and the lights and the experience were the brain shutting down. 

And I said, “Okay, then explain to me how, before I had Stage 2 cancer, and now it is gone. How does the brain shutting down create that?” And that’s why I think some of the nd ease, like Anita’s and mine, are a different flavor. They’re not better. They’re not words, but it says, “Okay, this is not the brain shutting down, and it’s not the brain shutting down.” You know, it’s amazing to me how much people want to believe in the negative. Stuff. Why not just try believing the good stuff?

Well, it goes back to that idea of the willing suspension of disbelief.

That’s true, that’s true. That’s why I think it’s so dangerous when I hear people talking about, Oh, I’m so in love with life. I just want to be 110. No, I’ll take the first exit door I see. Let me out of this crazy place. But, yeah, not my gig. Who was it? Methuselah lived to be 800 or something. I don’t know. Moses 120 Yeah, thanks. But no, we were like, “Oh, one day we’ll figure out how to get the cells to prevent the cells from breaking down, so you might be able to live forever.” Nope. Not, not my gig. 

I was gonna say, have you seen the movie Astral City? You would love it. Somebody showed it to me, and I loved it. But it’s a story of a man who dies having no faith in anything, no faith in that, even God exists, and on and on. And it’s powerfully done, it’s made in Brazil, and it’s all subtitled. It is really fascinating. And then the other one, have you ever heard the story of Howard Storm, who had an NDE?

Oh, I think I might have, actually.

The guy who ends up in hell, yes. And all I can remember from Sunday school is, you know, the Star-Spangled Banner and God Bless America and stuff, and it’s what he’s singing, trying to get out of hell because he can’t think of anything else. But yes,

Okay, I’m going to write down Astral City, and I’ll definitely check it out. Okay, so another thing I want to circle back on is when your stomach popped, and you were in church, and you were suddenly relieved of that chronic stomach pain. What popped in for me was that you had been procrastinating writing the book, and when you are on a mission, all the other problems just go away, right? You’re clear. The path is cleared for you. So that’s what I got. 

That’s a very good point, yeah, and it wasn’t, and that’s what I think it was. I think it was from the second surgical biopsy, which had been about five months earlier, because they sliced me open like a melon to look for, you know, stuff. And so I think there had been scar tissue, which was causing the obstruction. But, yeah, that’s an interesting corollary. That’s very interesting, because I believe that not always, but to a degree, when we’re having a physical problem, we kind of need to back up and say, “Okay, what’s what’s going on here? What’s the real issue? It’s not that my wrist hurts or my back hurts” or like I got this is so funny. I got a sore on my tongue, and I went to the dentist, and they said, “Well, you know, it’s weird. I’ll probably resolve it,” but then I told somebody, “I’m so angry at this person, I’m constantly biting my tongue around them.” So yes, I think we need to be careful about what we let into our thoughts,

Yeah, is that person still irritating you? Okay, here’s a solution for you. There’s a wonderful book called The Tools by Phil Stutz. Yeah, Phil Stutz is actually the subject of a wonderful documentary on Netflix, called Stutz. But anyways, he wrote this book about five tools that will help you, very practically, like uplevel your life, heal things, deal with trauma, all sorts of things. From all those years of being a psychotherapist, he kind of just distilled it down to those five things.

Wow. Yeah.

So one of these tools is specifically, I think, for you, and that is to imagine the person that you’re in conflict with in front of you, and imagine that love energy is flowing from your chest, okay, like the solar plexus area, to that other person. And imagine that you can feel like, viscerally, feel that as the person being the receiver of that, like, how does that feel for them to receive all that love energy, and that when you feel that that’s complete, that you’ve transferred however much that feels like that’s enough, then you replenish by having God and and you know, the the universe still yourself up back with to the brim with love and light. 

And so that comes in from above through your crown chakra, and then you’ll, I don’t know, you’ll change something. I know that, years and years ago, after I did this exercise and read the book, I decided to let go of the anger I had towards my aunt, whom I’d cut out of my life for several decades. And so I called her right after I did that exercise. 

And, you know, she’s been in my life since, and she’s not easy, but it’s, I know that I did something really good, like, I’m definitely earned some, some big mitzvah in the heavens for doing that, for, like, letting go of the justifiable. Anger. So I don’t know, try that out if that resonates, and you know, certainly also, you could read the full description of it in the book, The Tools, but that feels like that might move some energy for you. 

That would be good, because I do know we need to again. We need to watch our thoughts, especially when we feel irritated and angry. That’s not good for us. 

Yeah. You know, in Judaism, they teach that when you’re angry, your soul leaves your body, yikes, yeah. So your soul is outside watching, like, please don’t screw things up. It’s like handing the car keys to some bratty kid who doesn’t know how to treat things with respect. 

That is fabulous. That is great. That is powerful.

Yeah. So one more thing I want to share and get your take on is you mentioned the gratitude list and the miracle list. I love both of those. One thing I do as a daily practice, which is kind of similar, is I’m writing in what I call my God journal. So I’m writing to God, and I’m thanking him for all the things, and they’re not the same things every day and so forth, but I write multiple pages of stuff. I try to do at least half an hour every day, and I specifically call out the challenges. What’s that?

Was I just gonna say? What a great idea. 

Oh, thank you. Yeah. I’m sure that popped into my mind, like, I can’t come claim credit for that. I don’t know how it came to me, but, you know, it’s like the SDG.

SDG. Soli Deo Gloria.

Yes, it all comes from God.

You specifically call out the challenge. You said you specifically call out the challenges. 

Yes, because those are disguised blessings. Oh, wow, right? Because if we don’t have any challenges, we don’t have those growth spurts, yeah, and so that’s really important to identify, and what will happen is that I will learn things as I’m documenting that I’m grateful for this challenge because, you know, it’s like you you’re given a challenge, a difficult assignment, so that you will pass the class, right? And if you don’t pass, you have to retake the class, and that’s not fun. So let’s get the lesson from that challenge as quickly and efficiently as possible, and one of the best things to do is to be truly grateful for it.

Yeah, oh, man, that’s tough, isn’t it? Is being grateful? Being grateful when things are not going the way you think they should go,

This is another Jewish bit of wisdom, that everything is a blessing. It’s either revealed or yet to be revealed. 

Oh, wow.

Everything.

I’m gonna have to listen to this podcast when it comes out so I can make sure I remember all this, this. Those are beautiful ideas. They really are. 

Yeah. And the last thing in my journal that you might resonate with is documenting the messages I receive. So thank you, God, for the messages. Colon, yeah, and then bullet point, and then I start receiving whatever the messages are. And I ask, “God, what do I need to know or do today?” And I’ll get stuff popped into my head, you know? And I’ll write them down. And I’m so grateful in advance for these messages, and then they start flowing because I’m in a receptive, grateful state. So that’s a powerful exercise.

Oh yeah, that’s a wonderful idea. I’m gonna give that a go.

Awesome. So I know we’re out of time. I just wanted to also reflect something cool that you mentioned just very briefly, that this is how the universe works, and that is, before you even finish the sentence, you get the answer. 

Yes. 

The moment you’re in a grateful, receptive state, the messages come.

So that was like when you ask God, “Who are you?” And other times, when you’re wondering, what’s happening, what’s going on, and you don’t even complete the sentence in your mind, and you already are getting the answer flowing in. That’s how it works. So cool. 

That’s how it works when there’s no fear or no earthly obstacles, and that’s the challenge, as you said, to get away from anything that is unlike love, boy, that can be tough, especially now, 

Yeah, but everything that is not love is an illusion. It’s not real.

Yes, semi-colon, that can be one of the hardest things to prove.

But you know, that’s the whole point, like you get this opportunity to go from duality to oneness, where there is no separation.

That’s true. The polarity is, in my opinion, the very essence of the argument of what you might call Satan or darkness or whatever name you want to give it, is this political party and that political party and good and bad and it just seems like we’re constantly trying to make everything. It has two sides. That just seems to be where we really get into trouble. That seems to be the big trick of life on this Earth, that you know, there’s more than one God, more than one being, more than one life, more than one anything is a lie. Yeah?

Well, you know, that goes back to that Star Wars meme. It’s a trap. Yes, it’s true, yeah. But you know, really, at the end of the day, who does Satan work for? Like, who’s his boss 

Himself? 

No, it’s God. God’s in charge of everything, absolutely everything, if you think about it, like there’s nothing that happens or doesn’t happen without his sanctioning it.

That’s true. And I mean, all that Lucifer is is a fallen angel. I mean, he was one of the good guys in the beginning. I don’t know, those are difficult questions. I don’t know the answers. I mean, it’s so funny. You read a book that says, oh yeah, this makes a lot of sense, and then you read a book that is the antithetical argument. Well, that kind of makes sense, too. So it’s just deciding what feels the most, I guess, the closest to the divine.

Yeah, you know that there’s this, this meme that went viral on Facebook or wherever I saw it, and it’s like the truth versus true, and so there’s this, this illustration of a cylinder, and it’s casting a shadow on one plane, like on the x plane, and it looks like the circle. And so it’s labeled a circle with the word true next to it. And then on the y plane, it showed, or X, Y, I don’t know, whatever the other plane perpendicular, it showed a rectangle, because that was what was being, you know, put our portrait on on the other side from the shadow, and that was labeled as true as well. 

But the truth is, it’s a cylinder in 3D, not a 2D circle or a 2D rectangle, even though those were both true. So we can’t see the higher-dimensional truth because, by design, it’s hidden from us, and plus, we can’t understand the true nature of God as a created being. You can’t possibly understand the Creator. But, you know, we get these glimpses, we get these little nudges and well, signs and help along the way, so we can learn our lessons and grow and have our growth spurts.

Oh my gosh, that’s true. Have you ever seen the movie Always with Richard Dreyfuss and Holly Hunter?

You know, I don’t think I have, but I saw a scene or two from it. 

You would love it. I love it. 

There’s this one scene that I just watched multiple, multiple times, where Richard Dreyfus is yelling. He’s already, you know, a spirit he’s passed into nonphysical, and he’s trying to get a message across to this guy that he’s kind of mentoring from the other side. And he’s yelling at him, give him a chance or something, or maybe it’s to his previous partner or boss or something I forget, but he’s screaming at the guy, give him a chance. And he’s like, you know, maybe I’ll give you a chance. Do you remember that scene?

I do? Well, one of my favorites is when he encounters the schizophrenic guy in the cave. Do you remember that Richard Dreyfus, again, having passed, encounters a schizophrenic guy and realizes the schizophrenic guy can hear him, and he can repeat what Richard Dreyfus says. And I think there’s an interesting argument that, what if these people that we call extremely mentally ill have just tuned out of this world and tuned into the next one? And, you know, sometimes it gets dark, and they do bad things.

But what if that is what we’re calling mental illness, people who have disconnected a little bit from this world? And I wonder why we are so fast to dismiss anything that isn’t what we call normal, like in my chart, where they put that I was mentally ill because I was refusing traditional cancer treatment. So, yeah, I think, I think we just need to be more careful and more gentle as best we can

Yeah, true as that is. Thank you so much, Rosemary. This was a delight, and you’re such an inspiration, such a light in the world. Thank you for everything that you do. Thank you for doing the hard thing and writing the book

Took me three years, by the way, you’re very welcome.

And thank you, Listener, thank you, viewer, for being a light in the world too. So find something from this episode you can do to light up somebody else’s life, and we’ll make it a great week. We’ll catch you on the next episode. I’m your host. Stephan Spencer, signing off. 

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